Curse

Spirit_Axery · Dec 18, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Hiya, this is going to be short.

I've been told that the basis for the change in cost from 5 energy to 15 energy to execute Deadly Paradox was as a result of the signet builds.

This thread is an objection to this justification, premised upon two facts: one, that the signet builds were popular but not exceptional builds and two, that the nerf has all but removed Deadly Paradox from the game. Those who read this thread are asked to take the latter of the facts as my answer to any other justification for the nerf.

Request: Return the skill cost to 5 energy, or reduce the cost from 15 energy to 10 energy. A cost of 10 energy will marginalize the skill (not ideal) without rendering it wholly useless.

Mitsuki Hiyono
/signed
Reason: I believe that the nerf eliminates a number of builds unjustifiably.

Isileth · Dec 19, 2007, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Its a skill that most are happy to see dead.

While im not going to go into details because you can dig up long threads discussing it if you want. Basically the mechanics of the skill and the builds it promoted were not all that desirable.

Curse You · Dec 19, 2007, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Try reading the discussion on the skill's page from both Wikis

Official Wiki
GuildWiki

Spirit_Axery · Dec 19, 2007, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Okay Curse You, just read some of the official wiki discussion, but my position hasn't changed. I haven't bothered to review the complaints of those from HA because those people aren't fit to shine my shoes... but I saw a few ramblings about perma-shadow (a marginal build, and it could have been eliminated with a more moderate change to both Paradox and the elite- or certain classes could have started packing the right skills, madness!), and not a great deal else.

I'm standing by my sign.

Skyy High · Dec 19, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

You realize that Deadly Paradox on its own has been responsible for nerfs to many sin spells and skills? It's good that it's gone; maybe some of the other stuff can be buffed back to a position where they're usable without it.

Curse You · Dec 19, 2007, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit_Axery

Okay Curse You, just read some of the official wiki discussion, but my position hasn't changed. I haven't bothered to review the complaints of those from HA because those people aren't fit to shine my shoes... but I saw a few ramblings about perma-shadow (a marginal build, and it could have been eliminated with a more moderate change to both Paradox and the elite- or certain classes could have started packing the right skills, madness!), and not a great deal else.

I'm standing by my sign.

Two things.

1. Hero's Ascent is widely considered (and I agree with this) the highest form of PvP along with GvG. Ignoring it is just ignorant and near-sighted.

2. If the builds that used Deadly Paradox were so "popular but not exceptional" then why, pray tell, do you want it un-nerfed? Methinks you're just wanting to be able to use one of your "popular but not exceptional builds" again. Could you not just simply move on and find a better build?

Spirit_Axery · Dec 19, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Just finished reading the official wiki comments page. Would also be happy to see Paradox restored to its original condition as a PvE skill, I suppose. Nevertheless, the more I read of both sides of the argument, the more entrenched I'm becoming on mine.

Arkantos · Dec 19, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

The game is balanced around high-end pvp. Since this skill was overpowered in high-end pvp it was nerfed. Izzy isn't going to un-nerf this skill, the high-end pvp community wants it like this.

ensoriki · Dec 19, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

This skill can never go back to the way it was

UNLESS, we double recharges for all assassin spells to stop DP abuse.

In short, you can only change what it does.

but you can't revert it.

Spirit_Axery · Dec 19, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Two things.

1. Hero's Ascent is widely considered (and I agree with this) the highest form of PvP along with GvG. Ignoring it is just ignorant and near-sighted.

Hero's Ascent is also widely considered to be a den of fad-builds run by ill-mannered, pompous yobs that cause nerfs which often ruin peoples' works in PvE. Personally, I'd like to see HA *snipped*. It'd be no great loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

2. If the builds that used Deadly Paradox were so "popular but not exceptional" then why, pray tell, do you want it un-nerfed? Methinks you're just wanting to be able to use one of your "popular but not exceptional builds" again. Could you not just simply move on and find a better build?

In a post made right after your second-- before I read your second-- I said that although it's not ideal, restoring Deadly Paradox as a PvE skill would also be better than the current state of affairs. It's true that I miss AB'ing with a signet assassin-- from among my other still usable builds, thank you-- but that's not all there is to my objection.

The tone of this isn't too great, so I'm just going to add: I'm not angry (with you, anyway) and don't mean to create hard feelings.

Edit: I've always had a beef with HA, and the aggressive gits who hurl unending abuse at anyone who dares to step inside without being on an established HA'ers buddy list. I think I need to explain that I refuse to acknowledge the importance of a district of the game which fosters this sort of behavior. My last appearance in HA was my fifth or sixth; when my friend and guildy revealed this, our monk hounded me out, demanding that I leave and refusing to move unless I did.

Curse You · Dec 19, 2007, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit_Axery

Hero's Ascent is also widely considered to be a den of fad-builds run by ill-mannered, pompous yobs that cause nerfs which often ruin peoples' works in PvE. Personally, I'd like to see HA *snipped*. It'd be no great loss.

Sorry you feel that way, but HA is, as Arkantos said, the basis of most game balance.

AB, is frankly on the edge of being PvP. The groups are random, the goals hardly involve other players, and organization is rare. Luck is the determining factor. I could probably win an AB match with only 1 skill on my bar, as long as I get lucky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit_Axery

In a post made right after your second-- before I read your second-- I said that although it's not ideal, restoring Deadly Paradox as a PvE skill would also be better than the current state of affairs. It's true that I miss AB'ing with a signet assassin-- from among my other still usable builds, thank you-- but that's not all there is to my objection.

I repeat: could you not just simply move on and find a better build?

I've had builds I use get skills/builds nerfed. I didn't just beg for it to get changed back, I went and looked for a better skill/build. Many times this had led me to find more powerful and interesting builds.

Spirit_Axery · Dec 19, 2007, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

I've had builds I use get skills/builds nerfed. I didn't just beg for it to get changed back, I went and looked for a better skill/build. Many times this had led me to find more powerful and interesting builds.

Just because there are other possibilities doesn't mean I should just give up and go home when I believe something is incorrectly done. This is my reasoning.

makosi · Dec 19, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

The game is balanced around high-end pvp. Since this skill was overpowered in high-end pvp it was nerfed. Izzy isn't going to un-nerf this skill, the high-end pvp community wants it like this.

It was also rampant in low-end PvP (Randumb Arenas and AB).

At least now you can grind some faction without having to spec directly against those darn ass-casters. It's best left in its grave.

[DE] · Dec 19, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit_Axery

Okay Curse You, just read some of the official wiki discussion, but my position hasn't changed. I haven't bothered to review the complaints of those from HA because those people aren't fit to shine my shoes...
I'm standing by my sign.

Okay, calling HA players terribad. Must be an okay GvG'r to be able to back up that claim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me Searching for Your Guild Tag

Couldn't find any guilds that matched any of the given tags.

Oh. Well than I fail to see why you disregard HA as such a horrible PvP type. AB or RA I could understand but not HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by You

but I saw a few ramblings about perma-shadow (a marginal build, and it could have been eliminated with a more moderate change to both Paradox and the elite- or certain classes could have started packing the right skills, madness!), and not a great deal else. I'm standing by my sign.

Permashadow build was nothing but a griefing build and really wasn't that big of a problem. Plus it can still be ran even in the current state of deadly paradox.

IN SHORT. No. Not signed.

Spirit_Axery · Dec 19, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Permashadow build was nothing but a griefing build and really wasn't that big of a problem.

Yes, I'm an able GvGer. More importantly regarding the part that I quoted, we're actually in agreement here! I said myself that Permashadow was a marginal build. It was a pretty lame sort that I'm not defending.

Diddy bow · Dec 19, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

I think having the 50% recharge/cast back would be nice, at 15 energy you can rarley manage the left over energy to spam somthing to an imba rate anyway.

Just cant stand this AND black lotus strike being nerfed to crap >.<

Stormlord Alex · Dec 19, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

*not read thread*
/notsigned

With DP dead, roll-your-head-on-keyboard-and-win Assacasters took a hit.

A skill like DP needs to die so that Deadly and Shadow Arts can be balanced to do something useful without being overpowered lame.

thedeadlyassassin · Dec 19, 2007, 08:06 AM // 08:06

/signed. Assassins were never overpowered, but the mobs of noobs overpowered Anets decisions. Can't learn blind or daze? Shame on you.

Yanman.be · Dec 19, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Remove DA and SA tree entirely imo. Problems solved.

RhanoctJocosa · Dec 19, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Remove Assassins from the game entirely imo. Problems solved.

(anyone /signing this is RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing dumb or does not pvp, imo)